Content Marketing Gets Real:
An Interview With Naomi Dunford of IttyBiz

Content Marketing 101

This is an installment in the Content Marketing 101 series.

In March I attended the South by Southwest conference. In addition to keeping Brian out of jail enjoying some quality business planning time with Brian, I also met one of my great blogging friends face to face for the first time.

Naomi Dunford of Ittybiz is a genuinely remarkable voice in a sea of sameness. She’s a fantastic example of how content marketing can be used as the backbone of a real business that makes real money.

Naomi distinguished herself at SXSW by refusing to attend a single conference session. Instead, she spent four days hanging out in Austin’s excellent bars and holding court. Because she’s great to hang out with, has a smart business mind, and always had about a hundred brilliant people trying to schmooze her and be her friend, I spent at least as much time at the “Naomi conference” as I did at the real one. And my time was well spent.

At some point I realized I should capture some of this for you guys, so I turned on my MP3 recorder and started asking questions. I’m including this in the content marketing series as a case study of sorts. Naomi’s a great model to see how a real person can use excellent content to create a real business, and make a terrific living doing it.

The following is an edited transcript, mostly to keep things rated PG.

In other words: Naomi curses a lot. A LOT. She’s been edited with those *** thingies, but still… you’ve been warned.

Sonia: Thousands of people try to make a living online, but you just jumped in and did it. What do you think made the difference for you?

Naomi: Balls of steel. Scratch that, what’s steelier than steel? Diamond? Titanium? F***, I wonder if I can buy BallsOfTitanium.com from the iPhone RIGHT NOW. I could sell a sex aid or something, right? S**t, I hate my iPhone, I have no idea how this thing works.

Sonia: Do you press that button there? No, not that one. The other one. I thought those things were supposed to be so user friendly.

Naomi: Another million-dollar idea crushed by technology. OK, what were we talking about?

Sonia:: Balls of titanium.

Naomi: Hm. Yeah, I was quaking inside. Like, terrified. But on the outside, to the public, I was like, f*** it. We’re gonna do it and we’re going to make this mother****r WORK.

I also did not have a backup plan. I did not have a day job. I did not mentally tell myself, “It’s okay if this doesn’t work. You’re still a good person.”

No way. F*** that. If this didn’t work I was going to tar and feather myself. Failure was completely unacceptable and I threw myself into this s**t like my life depended on it. Which it sort of did, come to think of it.

Sonia: When did you know, Holy S**t, this thing is going to work?

Naomi: There were two times. I launched a new marketing package, do you remember that? The IttyBitty?

Sonia: Sure I do. You should have charged more money for it.

Naomi: F*** you. Although you’re right. Anyway, for people who don’t know what I’m talking about, it was two hours’ worth of marketing consulting, targeting a market that was not currently being courted at all.

We sold three months’ worth of consulting in about two hours. That was when I was like, you know, maybe there’s money in the ittybiz market.

The second time was when my first ebook was reviewed by Brian on Copyblogger. A lot of people bought it and I made a lot of money that day. So if you ever let Brian listen to this, thanks Brian.

That’s when I realized that what I was selling could work for a market of strangers as well as friends.

(Editor’s note: (You can read the original Copyblogger review here.) Naomi also wrote a series called How To Make $12,246 in a Day, talking about the experience.)

On some level, I still thought people were buying from me because they were fans. I still didn’t know if my s**t was going to sell to large groups of, you know, real people. Normal people who didn’t feel sorry for me because I did s**t like get my hand stuck in a wine box.

When it did, I knew this thing was going to be good.

Sonia: What’s the best part of your business?

Naomi: There are a lot of cool parts, but I think my favorite is that I’ve been able to provide security for my peeps. I gave my mom a job. I gave my husband a job. I gave my husband’s best friend a job. Knowing that I’m helping people other than just myself is the s**t.

Along the same lines, I’ve donated and raised a lot of money for a lot of causes. Which I know is your thing because you’re a giant hippie.

Sonia: Yeah, I’m still doing the 10 percent thing. Very motivating.

Naomi: That rocks. With Ittybiz we’ve given pretty big sums to Kiva and Heifer. We also did an emergency fundraising drive for a woman who was being stalked by her violent ex-husband. We got her more money in a day than most people make in months. It was pretty f***ing awesome to know that I had enough reach to help real, live, actual people. Not vague concepts of people. People.

Sonia: So what’s the suckiest part of your business?

Naomi: I work my f***ing *ss off. Does that count? OK, that’s not really true anymore. I do teleconferences and ebooks — it’s not exactly hard work these days.

Sonia: I don’t know, I think that’s hard work.

Naomi: It’s not digging ditches. Sometimes the thinking part is f***ing hard. Knowing a lot of people count on me making the right decisions is hard.

Also, there’s that point right before you launch a new product — and it happens every goddamned time — when you’re like, “F***! This is the one that’s not going to sell. This is the one that’s going to be absolute s**t. They are going to hate it and then they’re going to tell their friends they hate it and I will be broke and homeless.” Luckily this doesn’t last long, but it’s not a particularly delightful feeling.

Sonia: What’s your favorite copywriting trick?

Naomi: I have lots. Can I just spew them out?

Sonia: Could I stop you?

Naomi: Good point. OK. One, Treat people like they’re f***ing human beings. If you wouldn’t say it to your mother, it probably shouldn’t go on your sales page.

(Editor’s note. Yes, Naomi actually does talk like this to her mother. But always with a lot of love and respect.)

Two, Write your copy like you’re writing a letter or having a conversation. Well, like you’re writing a letter or having a conversation when you’re not hungover and behind on your mortgage. A nice, direct conversation. Be yourself on a good day.

Three, Write to one person. There are only two people in the conversation. You and the dude reading it. Never refer to your reader as part of a group. You are creating a mini relationship. You are WOOING. You are COURTING. The person you are courting does not like to feel that they’re part of some crowd. You don’t go up to a girl in a bar and say, “Many girls just like you feel that…”

Two people. You. The reader. That is all.

What am I up to?

Sonia: Four, I think.

Naomi: OK, Four, Give a s**t. Understand that people spend the majority of their days SCARED S**TLESS. They’re afraid you’re having them on. They’re afraid they’ll never make it. They’re afraid they’re doing it all wrong. They’re afraid of being a failure. They are afraid that the drudgery they’re living through every day will never end. Make them feel better and they’ll be tripping over their cat to get out their wallet.

Sonia: You’re in one of the most competitive topics on the web. Everybody and his brain-damaged brother is selling marketing advice online. Why do people buy your stuff and not someone else’s?

Naomi: Because I’m real. I’m not a guru. I make them feel like they’re normal. I wrote a post called What To Do When You’re Scared Sh*tless detailing how totally f***ing terrified I am on a regular basis. People relate to that.

Also, I try really hard to relate to what people actually want. The average person does not want to make a killing in Pay Per Click advertising. The average person doesn’t want to sell sleazy *ss info products. They want a business they can tell their mother-in-law about. They want their kids to be proud of them. They want to go to bed at night and think, “I did something good today.”

Most internet marketing products don’t address those things. They just talk about money. They address the lowest common denominator of people’s desires. Yes, money is nice. I like having a nice house, I like going on nice vacations, I like having a full time nanny. But, f***, people. Come on. That’s not what it’s all about.

Sonia: Do you ever worry about freaking people out? What do you do when people get uptight about the profanity?

Naomi: I delete the emails. Especially the ones telling me that I’ll never get any customers if I keep up with the potty mouth.

Sonia: What do you think, is it time for the pitch?

Naomi: Hell yeah, bring it on.

Sonia: OK, here’s the drill. Naomi and I have always had sort of a thing. She was one of the first people who came to hang out on my blog, and we just really get each other. Despite a somewhat different profanity level.

Naomi: Don’t f***ing lie, you swear as much as I do when you’re not recording for your nice blog readers.

Sonia: Not as much as you do, come on.

Naomi: Fine, live in denial. I know the truth.

Sonia: Good point. So, can I ask one more question?

Naomi: You can if you buy me another margarita. At which point I will be too drunk to stand up.

Sonia: Done. Is it true people have started calling you “Frank Kern with breasts”?

Naomi: (laughing) Yes, God help us, yes they do. But considering I wear a 36A, I think Frank might fill out his bra better than I do.

About the Author: Sonia Simone is Senior Editor of Copyblogger and the founder of Remarkable Communication.

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Comments

  1. That interview is absolutely hilarious. It seems confidence is everything. Obviously this person has a lot of confidence and doesn’t think twice about what they’re doing.

  2. lol .. really funny :D

  3. Great stuff, very refreshing. Can’t wait for the podcast ;)

    Off to read more stuff from Naomi.

  4. I always get soooo many ideas when I read Naomi’s stuff. Always always. That’s why I love it! She helps me grow my business potty mouth and all.

    Things I loved about this interview:
    #1 – Naomi encouraging us to reveal how scared sh*tless we all are. When she writes about it, I know I can too. Seriously ironic is be willing to reveal your imperfect stuff and this creates connection; not the expert stuff we *think* we need to share.

    #2 – Write to one person. Still practicing this & getting better. But honestly, when I get ready to write a sales page, I usually stalk someone elses sales page so I can get into the feeling of being the buyer and then ask myself questions like, “how’d they do that? what made me want this?” Now, I don’t have to. I can just remember this tip instead.

    PS. Very cool audio on the “confirm subscription page” for the free teleclass. Again, always more good ideas.

    Thanks, thanks and thanks again!

  5. Three of my faves all in one place: Copyblogger, Sonia and Naomi. Good stuff. Naomi, you are human. That’s why people love you. My favorite thing you said here (and this is saying a lot) is that if you wouldn’t say it to your mom, it doesn’t belong on the page. Well said and I agree. I didn’t know I subscribed to that advice until just now, but I totally do. For the record, I too talk to my mom like that, also with all the implied hugs. She swears like a sailor and I have to keep up.

  6. Crude vulgarity with a twist of humor. Interesting approach
    * LOL *

  7. I think Brian had another subdural hematoma when he read all the swearing in this. :) (Hmmm, maybe I should have added even more asterisks.)

    I hope it comes through why I love Naomi so much. She really gives a damn, which is probably why she’s so good at what she does.

  8. You just made my day. Thanks for making me laugh. I love both of you and am very excited to see what you have in store for us. Thank you both for everything! Have a happy day!

  9. Best content marketing lesson ever.

  10. Suddenly, I feel much better about playing hooky at conferences. I love this post because there is stuff here that isn’t re-hashed everywhere else. Thank you!

  11. This is great for anyone who thinks marketing is axiomatically sleazy: they can see it’s not.

    I’d love to hear the audio on this. No bleeping necessary.

  12. Naomi can give away bleeped mp3s and sell the unedited versions at a premium.

  13. I love Naomi and everything she does, seriously. She rocks damn hard.

  14. Great interview, great insights. Looking forward to even more.

  15. That was possibly one of the coolest interviews I’ve ever read. I amaze some people with my potty mouth so it’s nice to see I’m not the only one. I’ve been hanging on Naomi’s every word for awhile now and she’s definitely one of the very few REAL online business people. I’d say internet marketer but that just doesn’t sound right.

  16. I guess that is why we are estranged, Naomi could never talk to me as she appears to be able to talk to her “mom”, and if you believe her on that one, I have a few lots you can buy in Florida.

    Her Dad!

  17. Best advice: When writing copy, “Be yourself on a good day.” Thanks for the interview.

  18. F***, that was hilarious! Naomi, you’re a girl after my own “potty mouth heart”. This interview is a great example of how realness sells. Much like sex sells but funnier and without having to get naked. ;)

  19. I love Naomi, and you rock too Sonia! :) I really enjoyed this interview, swearing and all. It really makes it real.

    Oh and the Frank Kern with boobs thing is pretty hilarious. We need more “famous successful people with boobs” on the Internet, and I don’t mean Britney Spears. More Naomi’s would be cool with me though. ;)

  20. I think Naomi is better heard than read. Such a F*** colorful character :D

  21. @Nathalie, definitely. More boobs! :)

    It makes me happy that I was able to share the Naomi goodness with those of you who hadn’t met her yet. (Although perhaps some of you have been rendered unconscious by the asterisks.)

  22. Great interview. Why hide your true self? Naomi’s success demonstrates that people want to buy from someone they like and a lot of people like Naomi…swearing, short hair, and all.

  23. No exaggeration about the f***ing profanity. I would have liked to be a fly on the wall of that bar. I like the advice Naomi gives. Be true, be yourself, treat your audience like he/she is the only person being talked or solicited to. It does create a sense of intimacy, caring, and such.

    I loved the interview, you had me on the floor LMAO.
    :) thanks for the bit of humor.

  24. Holy cow, that was hilarious. I’ve been reading Ittybiz for awhile so I’m used to Naomi’s potty mouth (heaven knows I’ve got one of my own), but she is also one of my favorite people to read for a good kick in the pants. This is one of my favorite posts, ever.

  25. ok…ok…I know you are trying to convince people that “anybody” can start an online business, even “non-technical” people. But don’t you think the iphone bit was a bit too much?

  26. I’m taking a couple of hours off from thinking about my own stuff to bask in the brilliance of other people’s stuff. Well, some other people’s stuff.

    And you and Naomi are two of the coolest other people I know of. Thank you for the fly-on-the-wall slice of SXSW. Believe it or not, it gave even more dimension to Naomi. And I love that she didn’t go to the conference sessions. I like to stay off site and stroll through the halls of a conference once or twice. People think I am VERY busy. I’m actually having a lot of lunches and teas and fun.

    And of course I signed up for your free stuff. I’m not stupid.

    xox

  27. I love reading Naomi’s stuff. It’s always so entertaining and enlightening.

  28. Best content marketing lesson ever.

  29. FINALLY!!!!!!! Someone who talks to regular people! I just spent the whole weekend being brushed off and told that I couldn’t have a dream because I didn’t have enough money to start. I say I can. I’m scared, but my heart is leading me to reach out to those people like me who have a dream that won’t let them go. I would never tell them to put their dream on hold and go get a f***g job the way I was, not when they paid what I did to attend the event, especially.

    I agree wholeheartedly with Naomi about writing to just the reader – there may be millions of ‘em, but you’re writing to one at a time and all the money paying fancy copywriters in the world won’t change that.

    Go Naomi! and thank you, Sonia for this awesome post!

  30. Did you two start happy-hour a wee bit early?

  31. Thank you, Thank you, Thank you! I would not hesitate to have my 13-year-old son read this interview, simply based on the pure content. Awesome work. Second point, I *need* to review my approach on how I build up my blog/internet business or whatever you want to call it.
    Tude